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  #91  
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Wraith Wraith is offline
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Originally Posted by guar View Post
Wondering what happens if the forecast is for light winds and some crew "decide" to not show up. Conversely if the forecast is for heavy air and additional crew are recruited the night before.
Equate crew weight to sail inventory, you declare your maximum crew weight, if you are overweight it is the same as a having an oversize undeclared sail and you could be protested.

The 2018 ORC certificates also define a minimum crew weight.

The certificates also have double handed ratings as well as no flying sails rating on them.

On the GP 26 I increased the declared weight this year to 5 people from 4 last year.
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  #92  
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Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
The certificates also have double handed ratings
There you have it. All the Div 3 boats who like to race double handed should think about voting for ORC so that they can race with an appropriate adjusted rating!
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  #93  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
Equate crew weight to sail inventory, you declare your maximum crew weight, if you are overweight it is the same as a having an oversize undeclared sail and you could be protested.

The 2018 ORC certificates also define a minimum crew weight.

The certificates also have double handed ratings as well as no flying sails rating on them.

On the GP 26 I increased the declared weight this year to 5 people from 4 last year.
If I understand this correctly, you declare crews numbers rather than crew weight, which makes more sense and is more readily policed.

On the other hand given how most people seem hesitant to protest even the most blatant fouls - I doubt many would ever bother protesting. Especially since it appears to run counter to the mantra of introducing new people to the sport. However excess crew numbers has been a bugaboo of mine for a long time, and I've wished PHRF would address this. Exactly how I don't know - but I hate seeing a rail full of redundant bodies.

But certainly this would be one of the most blatant fouls - it can be easily done without even removing ones socks. Getting off topic here, but if no one protested for violations of this, then there is truly no hope of anyone protesting anything.
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  #94  
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Originally Posted by guar View Post
I think ORC is a great tool for modelling how changes to an individual boat will affect performance, but I am uncertain how well it works comparing one boat to another.
I've been doing some some detailed comparisons within the Div 3 fleet, and so far ORC is looking pretty damn good.

PHRF actually looks pretty decent too, but only if you use the National ratings and some common sense. Using the BC numbers, and some of the historical adjustments that have been made, you get some seriously questionable ratings that don't bear any resemblance to what ORC, Schell regression or PHRF National numbers would suggest is correct.

I figure that if there are four ways of estimating something, and three of them agree but one of them doesn't ...
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  #95  
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If I understand this correctly, you declare crews numbers rather than crew weight, which makes more sense and is more readily policed.
I used the example of 5 people, the default computed by the VPP for the GP 26 was 388 kg,

in 2017 I declared 340 kg (4 people at 85 kg).

in 2018 I declared 425 kg (5 people at 85 kg)

I believe the VI 360 2017 NOR stated that they would be counting people as an indicator of weight.
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  #96  
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By far the best part of "ratings" is it's ability to focus as far away as possible to the task of making your boat balance properly and sail through the water as well as it can. Sail size credits, penalties, crew weight, ect, all predefined to be used over a broad spectrum of boats with little or no understanding what each boats ideal sail plan is.
Two examples:
Dash 34
heavier than designed and the sail plan was too far forward to balance the boat correctly (read lee helm) Therefor the larger mainsail and smaller genoa (similar ish overall sail area) resulted in a massive improvement of the balance of the boat. No rating rule can understand if the basic balance of the boat was wrong.

Schock 40
Three moving (very finicky easy to stall) high lift foils and a sail plan that resulted in over 10 degrees of weather helm. Reducing the mainsail area and increasing the jib from frac to masthead balanced the boat out resulting in a massive performance gain.. in the order of 60-70 seconds a mile upwind below 12 knots...

If all the energy was put into worrying if my rating was "right" neither of these boats performance would have been improved.
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  #97  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guar View Post
If I understand this correctly, you declare crews numbers rather than crew weight, which makes more sense and is more readily policed.
Negative. In ORC it is weight that is on the certificate.

One of the issues with regulating crew numbers is that not all boats of the same nominal size require the same number of people to sail.

There was a discussion on that other site about PHRF-LIS prescribing max # of crew allowed, based on boat size. And the limit for a 40 foot boat was 11 people.

11 people on a FARR 395 is plenty (maybe even more than needed) for a round the buoys race. But try doing a multi-lap race on Occam's with only 11 people.... no freakin' way!

Although the Van Isle NOR stated that they were going to be monitoring crew weight, we didn't see evidence of that.
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  #98  
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Originally Posted by henryr View Post
Negative. In ORC it is weight that is on the certificate....Although the Van Isle NOR stated that they were going to be monitoring crew weight, we didn't see evidence of that.
If that's the case, I can only see the crew weight thing being viable at ORC Grand Prix type of events.

I don't see anyone protesting it at local events. In the unlikely event one does get protested, does the entire crew get drunk and strip down naked, then step on the scales - before they pass out? I dunno.
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  #99  
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Sure, it's the same with OD events.

There is a weight limit. But it's up to the organizer to decide if they are going to have weigh ins.

The advantage of ORC is that the weight limit is explicitly stated on each boat's certificate, enabling this to be enforced, if the organizer decides to do so.

For example, if SYC were to start running their Grand Prix regatta under ORC, I would not be surprised if they were to do weigh ins.

We used to do weigh ins for the NOOD regatta's in the States.
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  #100  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
So what now? We've compared the two systems, both seem like they have issues.

Do we all go get ORC certificates so we can complain about those?
Do it, Dan. Someone's got to get the Choate 27 hull measured up and into the system (it doesn't look like it's in there yet).

Locally, it would add another useful data point to the overall picture, and would actually be a two-fer because then Kootka could get an ORC cert without going through the hull-measuring malarky (only one of you needs to do that).

Get some dual-scoring going and it could be good fun.

(And remember, you get a bonus target speed chart out of the deal ... )
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