border
Home      Register      Show Groups      Photos      Videos     

SailingX > Yacht Club > Crew Pool

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-29-2014
Anemos Anemos is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 26
Default

Hi mark! The rep was in touch with us and explained that they are 100% confident the jackets work. They are writing us a letter to that extent. It seems there are 2 types of triggers- Hammar (pressure triggered) and a calcium capsule water trigger. The former requires 2' of water pressure to inflate. The latter is more sensitive and may trigger from a good dousing. On dolce we all have the hammar type. Apparently when scott went in he didn't go deep enough to trigger it, in spite of being fully immersed. Hard to believe but that is what they told us.
I would definitely read the manual and the fine print but I have confidence in our deck vests. Spinlock was quick to come to the table with information and suggestions for proper training, which we will be undertaking in the new year. Ultimately it would be wise to do a practice run with the vest and learn how to manually inflate, which should be done immediately when you hit the water no matter what. It would not have taken long for Scottie to succumb to the cold and he would have not had the wits to inflate. If anyone's interested I can follow up when I hear more from spinlock.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-29-2014
WunHungLo WunHungLo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 57
Default

Canting, you appear to write like someone with some experience, yet your sweeping generalizations about lawyers and inflating PFD's are nonsense. The ISAF OSR's have been developed by some very experienced SAILORS, after seriously studying numerous real life/death experiences. You have used your experience (and conjecture), or limited statistics in one context, and made sweeping conclusions that all inflatables are useless.

Self-inflating, manual inflating, or fixed buoyancy PFD's all have a valuable safety role in the right context. Your sweeping generalization is dangerous and frankly, contrary to the safety rules under which we race, particularly offshore.

- So far, not one of numerous self-inflating PFD's of different brands I have owned has failed to inflate. They have included the pill type, and Hammar.
- my Hammar equiped Spinlock deckvest has inflated in less than a foot of immersion. It has inflated correctly in every SAS course taken and other tests.
- with respect to your conjecture about not being unconscious, that is not the point. The point of the design of any of the bladder type, or keyhole type of PFD is to self right, and attempt to keep your face above water. Are you saying that's a bad idea, and one dreamt up by lawyers?
-with respect to not being able to swim in a PFD, in cold water, you should try to preserve heat by not swimming and recirculating cold water. The fact is, you can make progress in an inflatable PFD as most know who have done a SAS course, using the right technique.
- Depending on conditions, I often use a drysuit. I have found from practical experience, that if you end up in the water, unconscious, that even a 150N PFD won't flip you over onto your back due to air in the shoulders of the drysuit. As a result, I bought a Spinlock 275N Hammar which will flip you over. It's only down side is that the bladders are so big, they tend to smother, however, once right side up, and conscious, there is no issue in letting air out and manually inflating with the inflate tube to adjust. I think I would prefer to have equipment that will do its best to try and keep me alive, than on my face drowning like a fixed buoyancy jacket would IN THIS CONTEXT.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-30-2014
canting keel canting keel is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 319
Default

my experiences and my opinions are mine,

I said they were dangerous, which is an over simplification of a very complex issue, my opinion is based on a real life event that came very close to costing someone his life, A person could not swim and his jacket didnt inflate. If it was your spouse who died because just one didnt go off isnt that enough??? if it isnt 100% I dont trust them, Simple pfds that hold 5 kilos WILL keep you up above the water. I am sure you have been the skipper or been the helm of many race boats so you take, like I do, the crews safely very seriously. I never intend on telling someone their father, mother,spouse died,

I have spent far too much time in the water in the winter while training in my past, being able to swim to the boat and get yourself back in was needed to survive.

In that you have bashed me in the past I will let this just be another of your " I hate him he is an asshole but I will not say who I am"

You have a beef, fine, Stand up tell me who you are so I can understand your background.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-30-2014
WunHungLo WunHungLo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 57
Default

Sent you a pm.

I don't know who you are either, but irrespective of who you are, sweeping generalizations on safety can't go unanswered, particularly when you present your opinion as if it were a universal truth or fact. If it were a credible opinion, then don't you think we'd all be required to wear a fixed buoyancy jacket?

If you don't think an MOB could be unconscious, then using your logic, it doesnt matter if it doesn't automatically inflate does it? There's a manual trigger. With respect to swimming with the PFD, there's a deflate valve if you really have to swim unrestricted.

You can find fault with many "safety" solutions when used out of the context of their design objective. Losing a crew member at any time, is a trajedy, and a nasty irony when it's a piece of failed safety equipment. Before concluding that all self inflating jackets are worthless, I would first want to know what failed and why. Was it because it wasn't serviced? Was the trigger mechanism corroded or salt encrusted? Had the pill ever been replaced? Was the cylinder not fully screwed in (that has happened before). Many failures can be put down to owner error by not doing regular inspections and maintenance.

As I said, not one of my self inflating PFD's has failed and I test and check mine before every season. I also have a fixed buoyancy jacket which is great for what it was designed for, and hopeless in the situations it wasn't.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-30-2014
Anemos Anemos is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 26
Default

Wunhung- a well written response. The concern in our particular situation was that Scottie was fully immersed. His head was bobbing under waves. It appeared that the deck vest trigger mechanism was more than a foot under at least. We have been told verbally by the spinlock rep that it takes 2' of water to trigger the hammar so our conclusion is that he was not deep enough.
Putting all this aside I still think we have the best lifejackets on the market but I want to do some MOB drills to get us acquainted with real life situations. Cheers cedric
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-30-2014
Schnick's Avatar
Schnick Schnick is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,008
Default

I'm pretty happy to let everyone make their own decision on this issue, and I wish ISAF felt the same. For myself, I subscribe to about the same philosophy as Canting Keel, but I do suspect that 99% of the Spinlocks out there work just fine when new.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-30-2014
WunHungLo WunHungLo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 57
Default

Anemos,
I was washing my 275N Deckvest after an offshore race in a few inches of warm bath water. The Hammar went off moments after immersion. At a SAS pool session earlier this year, it went off moments after entering the pool. The Hammars on the 275, at least mine have been, are pretty sensitive to immersion pressure, and no problem when you're drenched above the surface.

I think inspection, maintenance, practice and more practice are key to using all the safety gear we have in any sport.

I will support the comments that Spinlock Customer Service, at least those I have dealt with in Rhode Island, have been excellent. I recently sent mine back for inspection. After the last time it inflated, a couple of teeth and the end stop pulled off the end of the zip so it couldnt be repacked properly. No problem... A new PFD is on its way back.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-30-2014
Northern Girl's Avatar
Northern Girl Northern Girl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 297
Default

Speaking of men overboard, and to loosen the tension a bit... Cedric, my wife Sonia (nee Walmsley) told me that you were her first MOB in a Flying Junior almost 40 years ago. She remembers you on the helm and then looking back and you were gone. Not sure whether she used the quick stop procedure or not but said you were back on board and going again in no time. Not sure if kids even had to wear pfd's back then once you learned how to swim.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-30-2014
mtn1 mtn1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Van
Posts: 13
Default

I have now seen both Mustang HIT inflatables and a Spinlock 5D hammar not inflate. How much more immersion do you need than falling off a 40.7 at speed? The question of which jacket to wear is a personal one, but takes a backseat to the decision to wear something. The trade off of not inflating vs not flipping an unconscious person over is a tough call to make ahead of time. Personally I would take flotation as a first priority everytime. Let's just use this experience as reminder to wear PFDs, whatever you choose, AND to practice MOB.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-30-2014
canting keel canting keel is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 319
Default

My final comment regarding this.

Life jackets are like seat belts. Better than the alternative "most of the time"
statistically wearing your seat belt in the city may not lead to better crash results. If you are on the highway or at highway speeds they are far safer.

It is very safe to say "hung" has his opinions. Mine come from my real life situations. I have 16 inflatable lifejackets on Valkyrie, I am going to strongly suggest everyone have a 100% foolproof alternative as well. in addition the guys on the grinders or trimming had their inflatable style jackets get in the way. It reminded me of the rule "no ties" in shop class, The people with "old skool" lifejackets didn't have the same issue. The harness/ pfd on the 40.7 not going off is NOT an isolated event.

Opinions change on what is safe: Up until a few years ago rope lifelines were considered unsafe, For a few years they became safe, Now they are unsafe again.... but not until the end of next year.... I am glad as I would not put them on valkyrie for long distance races, chafe will always be an issue. Again, my opinion based on my experience.

One of the crew on Valkyrie is very involved in the safety side of racing in US sailing.

As they saying goes; "my bat and ball" we will fully comply with what is required by whatever rules are in effect AND do what our experience has shown to be right. "hung" can do what he wants on his boat.

looking forward to getting Valkyrie out racing again in the new year.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS
A vBSkinworks Design

right